WoW Rogue Discussion -

Drysc7/13/2006 9:58:50 AM PDTRogue Talent Review - Second Sight

We have been continuing to work on the review since the 'First Glimpse' post, the talent calculator unveiling, and we have been building upon those initial changes. After our own discussions and testing, as well as reviewing the player feedback we have received, we are planning to make the below additional changes to the rogue talents for patch 1.12.

Please keep in mind that these changes, as well as the review as a whole, are not final, and are still subject to change. We are moving closer to the launch of the Public Test Realms for 1.12 and we will be continuing to evaluate the changes throughout the testing process.

The 'First Glimpse' post and talent calculator can be viewed from the links below.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=1271292&p=1

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogues2/talents.html

Murder has been changed to increase damage caused against Humanoid, Giant, Beast, and Dragonkin by 1%/2%.

Remorseless Attacks has been reduced to 2 ranks, with the new effectiveness being 20% and 40%.

Endurance has been changed to reduce the cooldown of your Sprint and Evasion abilities by 45 sec/1.5 min. It no longer increases the duration of Evasion.

Weapon Expertise will now increases your skill with Fist, Dagger, and Sword weapons. It will no longer affect Maces, and this change is being followed up by

Mace Specialization will now also add 1-5 weapon skill with Maces, in addition to the stun effect the talent already provides.

Adrenaline Rush now has a reduced cooldown of 5 min.

Elusiveness has been reduced to a 2 point talent and now reduces the cooldown of Vanish and Blind by 45 sec/1.5 min. It no longer reduces the cooldown for Evasion.

Opportunity is being moved to a tier 1 talent, swapping places with Camouflage.

Ghostly Strike has been reverted back to the previous 125% weapon damage, but retains its new Energy cost of 40.

Setup will now also provide combo points if you fully resist an attackers spell.

Improved Rupture, Improved Cheap Shot, and Improved Garrote have been removed.

New talent 'Serrated Blades' is a tier 4 talent in the Subtlety tree, causes your attacks to ignore X of your targets Armor, and increases the damage dealt by your Rupture ability. The amount of Armor reduced increases with your level. At level 60, the ranks will reduce target Armor by 100/200/300 respectively.

New talent 'Dirty Deeds' replaces the Improved Cheap Shot talent, reducing the Energy cost of both the Cheap Shot and Garrote abilities by 10/20.

Garrote, Eviscerate, and Rupture now all scale with Attack Power. The previously announced Eviscerate book will still be made available in an undisclosed location. While we had always planned to scale these abilites at a point in the future, we felt that the rank upgrade for Eviscerate and damage increase for Garotte would provide a well needed boost in the current game and carry these abilities until the scaling mechanic was implemented. Our ultimate goal to scale the abilities in a future update was decided to be moved ahead, and the current plan is to implement scaling for these abilities in 1.12, instead of in a later update.

Again, please keep in mind that any of the above changes are subject to revision, reversal, or removal. We'll be continuing to evaluate these changes, and the review as a whole. Neither the talent calculator, nor these forum posts should be considered final word on the review.

Thanks for reading.

Elerine7/13/2006 9:59:10 AM PDTRe: Rogue Talent Review - Second Sight

Huh.

Zitrone7/13/2006 9:59:37 AM PDTRe: Rogue Talent Review - Second Sight

This is beginning to look like a real review! Thank you Drysc.

So of the holy trinity of rogue concerns

Cooldown dependency to eliminate kiting - still standing

Scalability - fixed (or so we think)

Uselessness in raids - still standing

1 was maybe fixed.

[ post edited by Zitrone ]

Murongo7/13/2006 9:59:37 AM PDTRe: Rogue Talent Review - Second Sight

This better not get nerfed to oblivion like the first glimpse. Specifically:

"Garrote, Eviscerate, and Rupture now all scale with Attack Power. The previously announced Eviscerate book will still be made available in an undisclosed location. While we had always planned to scale these abilites at a point in the future, we felt that the rank upgrade for Eviscerate and damage increase for Garotte would provide a well needed boost in the current game and carry these abilities until the scaling mechanic was implemented. Our ultimate goal to scale the abilities in a future update was decided to be moved ahead, and the current plan is to implement scaling for these abilities in 1.12, instead of in a later update."
I want that in writing. Well, blood writing, or something more solid than blue text :P

[ post edited by Murongo ]

Even our reviews get nerfed O_o

Tribulation7/13/2006 9:59:38 AM PDTRe: Rogue Talent Review - Second Sight

first

Mombasa7/13/2006 9:59:42 AM PDTRe: Rogue Talent Review - Second Sight

Holy smokes.

That's hot.

I can't wait to mess around in the PTRs.

Only disappointment is that my combat swords is going to miss two points in improved (and scaling!) eviscerate due to WEx. I'm very happy to see dagger rogues get the love they needed, but swords aren't very flexible at the moment.

[ post edited by Mombasa ]

Oh my god I'm Mombasa.

Karah7/13/2006 9:59:49 AM PDTRe: Rogue Talent Review - Second Sight

Q u o t e:
Weapon Expertise will now increases your skill with Fist, Dagger, and Sword weapons. It will no longer affect Maces, and this change is being followed up by...

Mace Specialization will now also add 1-5 weapon skill with Maces, in addition to the stun effect the talent already provides

why? what did that solve?

Q u o t e:
Adrenaline Rush now has a reduced cooldown of 5 min.

ooooooooh zomg

Q u o t e:
Setup will now also provide combo points if you fully resist an attackers spell.

though it further establishes that PvPers will have to be in sub...ZOMG!!!!!

Q u o t e:
New talent 'Serrated Blades' is a tier 4 talent in the Subtlety tree, causes your attacks to ignore X of your targets Armor, and increases the damage dealt by your Rupture ability. The amount of Armor reduced increases with your level. At level 60, the ranks will reduce target Armor by 100/200/300 respectively.

...did I read that right? on the one hand thats EVEN MORE points in sub for PvP but....wow...just wow.

Q u o t e:
Garrote, Eviscerate, and Rupture now all scale with Attack Power. The previously announced Eviscerate book will still be made available in an undisclosed location. While we had always planned to scale these abilites at a point in the future, we felt that the rank upgrade for Eviscerate and damage increase for Garotte would provide a well needed boost in the current game and carry these abilities until the scaling mechanic was implemented. Our ultimate goal to scale the abilities in a future update was decided to be moved ahead, and the current plan is to implement scaling for these abilities in 1.12, instead of in a later update.

the flagship that saved us all...the change we all fantasized about but never deemed possible...

my life is complete, thank you Drysc

[ post edited by Karah ]

Captain Eyo casts Nerf on horde. Nerf crits for 60000

Rexy7/13/2006 9:59:50 AM PDTRe: Rogue Talent Review - Second Sight

First

Well, almost :)

[ post edited by Rexy ]

Lokita7/13/2006 9:59:54 AM PDTRe: Rogue Talent Review - Second Sight

almost first?

Q u o t e:
Garrote, Eviscerate, and Rupture now all scale with Attack Power. The previously announced Eviscerate book will still be made available in an undisclosed location. While we had always planned to scale these abilites at a point in the future, we felt that the rank upgrade for Eviscerate and damage increase for Garotte would provide a well needed boost in the current game and carry these abilities until the scaling mechanic was implemented. Our ultimate goal to scale the abilities in a future update was decided to be moved ahead, and the current plan is to implement scaling for these abilities in 1.12, instead of in a later update.

Me love you long time

[ post edited by Lokita ]

Warriors that don't use Berserker Rage are my favorit

Prissy7/13/2006 10:00:00 AM PDTRe: Rogue Talent Review - Second Sight

For reference, I also reviewed the initial preview , here is a link to that review:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-rogue&T=1271292&P=22
This character is an alt for Dak to post

Q u o t e:
We have been continuing to work on the review since the 'First Glimpse' post, the talent calculator unveiling, and we have been building upon those initial changes.

Translation: 99% of rogues #@%$!ing up a storm made us rethink a bit.

Q u o t e:
Please keep in mind that these changes, as well as the review as a whole, are not final.

Translation: Please don't flame us so hard again until we can sell you the expansion.

Q u o t e:
Murder has been changed to increase damage caused against Humanoid, Giant, Beast, and Dragonkin by 1%/2%.

Some numbers will have to be crunched to determine if DPS gain from this is worth giving up other talents for, because there is still a complete failure at real talent consolidation in the rogue review, with the one exception of finally giving dagger rogues some love by moving Opportunity to tier 1. However, I expect most rogues will still find it too situational to spend points in, especially with the current top end instance being all undead.

Q u o t e:
Remorseless Attacks has been reduced to 2 ranks, with the new effectiveness being 20% and 40%.

Is this still in the talent tree? I'm not sure what the point of this change was, as it generally is ignored by most builds, and will still be.

Q u o t e:
Endurance has been changed to reduce the cooldown of your Sprint and Evasion abilities by 45 sec/1.5 min. It no longer increases the duration of Evasion.

We don't want more or better talents we can't afford to fix our cooldowns. We want our cooldowns fixed without talents.

Q u o t e:
Weapon Expertise will now increases your skill with Fist, Dagger, and Sword weapons.

Obvious.

Q u o t e:
Adrenaline Rush now has a reduced cooldown of 5 min.

I like this a bit since I use AR, although i'm still a 5 min trick pony. See above about cooldowns.

Q u o t e:
Elusiveness has been reduced to a 2 point talent and now reduces the cooldown of Vanish and Blind by 45 sec/1.5 min. It no longer reduces the cooldown for Evasion.

How about you get rid of Elusiveness, reduce Vanish and Blind by 1.5 min, and sell us some blinding powder? In your last preview Subltety already had massive talent consolidation... more talent consolidation in subltety is not what rogues want or need.

Q u o t e:
Opportunity is being moved to a tier 1 talent, swapping places with Camouflage.

You'll get a lot of love for this.

Q u o t e:
Ghostly Strike has been reverted back to the previous 125% weapon damage, but retains its new Energy cost of 40.

Uh, K. Go subltety?

Q u o t e:
Setup will now also provide combo points if you fully resist an attackers spell.

Ditto. How often do you fully resist versus dodge?

Q u o t e:
New talent 'Serrated Blades' is a tier 4 talent in the Subtlety tree

STOP WITH THE NEW STUFF IN SUBTLETY. Or at least focus on SOMETHING else somewhere of worth.

Q u o t e:
New talent 'Dirty Deeds' replaces the Improved Cheap Shot talent, reducing the Energy cost of both the Cheap Shot and Garrote abilities by 10/20.

See above. /wrist

Q u o t e:
Garrote, Eviscerate, and Rupture now all scale with Attack Power.

This has PROMISE. I refuse to jump for joy until I see what kind of numbers you use to scale. If my 1700 buffed attack power increases my Eviscerate by 100 damage, we're going to have problems. I'll wait and see.

This 2nd Review, besides addressing some massively obvious issues (those being, 1) Opportunity, and 2) Fist Weapons), I still consider this review a failure and it still fails to address rogue concerns like kitability.

IF Evis scales reasonably, you'll have slightly fixed rogue scaling, although it is still an issue.

You have given combat daggers a lot of help, freeing up 5 points, and they will love you for it, but that was one concern of one build, not one of the big ones of the whole rogue class.

Do not think you have appeased anyone with this. This review still needs a hell of a lot more work before I consider it decent.

Although it's going to take about 3 days for the "we get something new" effect to wear off, just like it did last time. If you read my above analysis of the preview I got mostly flamed and told to "QQ", and ended up being almost 100% right. Do you have Steve Jobs' reality distortion field installed for blue posts?

Dak

[ post edited by Prissy ]

Bromwyn7/13/2006 10:00:02 AM PDTRe: Rogue Talent Review - Second Sight

whoot

Why the hell can't you ambush in the face.

Catian7/13/2006 10:00:11 AM PDTRe: Rogue Talent Review - Second Sight

first page, woot

[ post edited by Catian ]

Kizkit7/13/2006 10:00:11 AM PDTRe: Rogue Talent Review - Second Sight

Reserved for fish

The secret to success in life: Everything burns.

Queesy7/13/2006 10:00:36 AM PDTRe: Rogue Talent Review - Second Sight

hey changes... who would have thought...

[ post edited by Queesy ]

"Word to yah mutha" - Vanilla Ice

Morador7/13/2006 10:00:39 AM PDTRe: Rogue Talent Review - Second Sight

1st page ;p

Edit:
Finally some scaling happening! <3 Drysc

[ post edited by Morador ]

I eat gnomes for breakfast.

Worm7/13/2006 10:00:41 AM PDTRe: Rogue Talent Review - Second Sight

Q u o t e:
Opportunity is being moved to a tier 1 talent, swapping places with Camouflage.

...

Holy crap

[ post edited by Worm ]

Trueclaw7/13/2006 10:00:46 AM PDTRe: Rogue Talent Review - Second Sight

first page?

omg oppourtunity tier one!!!!

[ post edited by Trueclaw ]

I swear they shortened the length of everyone's signa

Gnomel7/13/2006 10:00:50 AM PDTRe: Rogue Talent Review - Second Sight

Is it just me, or does this seem more and more like just a normal patch vs an actual "review."

Arrrrr! Avast, me mateys! Thar be trouble brewin'!

Spleen7/13/2006 10:01:09 AM PDTRe: Rogue Talent Review - Second Sight

How about that. We'll get back to you.

Thrall lied, peons died. Varimathras for Warchief.

Lucena7/13/2006 10:01:15 AM PDTRe: Rogue Talent Review - Second Sight

omg i havent looked yet but welll see